Padiham Saints J.F.C

Padiham Saints 1-4 Darwen Rangers Lads

Goalscorer: Mary Heys

Man Of The Match: Alex Golbourne

It was always going to be a tough game playing the top team in the league, but I think we made a very decent impression in a game that was more even at times than the scoreline suggests.

We did start very well, and went ahead afer a great run and finish from Mark down the right hand side. We did a fairly good job at defending the lead, although Alex did have to make a couple of outstanding saves to keep us in it. But like a top team does, Darwen eventually found a way through and at the halftime whistle we were 2-1 down.

It looked a bit less likely we were going to get much out of the game after the second half started, we looked tired, a few heads were dropping and a bit of frustration was setting in. We weren't clearing the ball, and didn't create enough oppertunities to get back in the game. We did end up conceding another two goals before the final whistle.

Looking back on the report, it's clear to see where we were going wrong - we can match anyone in the league in the first half of a game, then in the second half we can't compete. A bit of fitness and concentration is needed if we are to improve on our league position. We saw it in our last match as well, we were 6-0 up, then our performance dropped and the game finished 6-2. I know it didn't make a difference to the final outcome of the game, but those two conceded goals could easily cost us a place in the table if we finish level on points with another team.

Those comments aside however, watching the first half of the game you wouldn't have thought that the team we were playing were 4 places above us in the league. Our next game against Clayton should be a little closer. They occupy third in the table, a position I think we can be at this time next season. If we can get a result against them then we can prove that.

Just a quick few mentions - Alex obviously, made plenty of good saves and showed good anticipation and bravery, collecting the ball at the opponents feet more than a few times.

Carlton Brock - had a great game in defence, got back well to intercept plenty of through balls throughout the game.

Mark Heys - Gave a very good first half performance wide on the right, kept Darwens defence on their toes, as his goal showed.


I'd love to hear what the parents felt about the game, if you feel I've missed anything in the report you're welcome to add anything.

Cheers - Tom

Well I didn't see the game Tom but would like to comment.
Sounds like the lads had a great game, playing the league leaders is never going to be an easy game. Going one up then losing 4-1 is no disgrace for any team if they've given their best.

Fitness these days does seem to be an issue at all levels but most importantly in the kids. I know they train for a short time a couple of times a week and have minimal 'sports' at school but it really is what they do for the rest of the time that can have the edge.

I'm not going to start preaching but activity wise todays kids are a light year away from where we were 40 or 50 years ago. We walked to school, 3 mile round trip, we played football at school breaks and lunch times and sometimes after school in the school yard. We went swimming 3 or 4 times a week sometimes every day barring Sunday. Every daylight hour was spent down the park or on the spare land, again with a ball and if there wasn't anyone out you kicked about on your own up against a wall. Parents had no fear for where their kids were in those days and physical activity was the norm not something you worked at. Almost every kid was a member of a youth club or some organisation, focused again on physical activities. A McDonald was the scotsman that lived round the corner.

I'm not sterotyping 'all' kids in this bracket but today it seems they're dropped off and picked up from school. If they've nothing on it's plonked in front of the tele or pc. Going out and playing in the snow, when we get it, is something to be avoided because its cold and heaven forbid going out if it's raining, they'll catch cold.

Again Tom this isn't a pop at anyone but I think fitness levels is just a sign of the times and these days unfortunately they're not 'naturally' fit they have to work at it. Lifestyle, diet and level of activity all play a part. Give me 11 super fit lads that are average footballers against 11 brilliant footballers who can only run for half a game anytime.

Well, that's my twopennyworth again, I'm sure its not everyones view and it is generalised which is probably unfair on some of the lads who are very fit. Not sure how much emphasis Saints put into personal fitness outside training sessions but I do feel it needs to be emphasised that what they make themselves today is what they'll be tomorrow.

Well done again lads especially Alex, Carlton and Mark, keep battling up that league table.

with this game I turned up just after half time and watched the game standing with the parents and coach from Darwen, here are my views about the game.
the first thing I noticed was the way Darwen's parents and coach were shouting encouragement to their players constantly throughout the game. this in turn gave their team confidence and they were talking alot more to one another and hence improved their game. On the home front with Padiham you could see their heads were down and they weren't getting the encourgement from the parents and coach. On skill levels Padiham were the better team but lacked that final pass. Off the pitch the lads are best of mates chatting non stop so why on the pitch do they lose their tongues?
Unfortuantly the Darwen parents did have a laugh when the padiham linesman threw his flag on the floor complaining about some bloke having a moan about the "offside rule" It's called "football" and you get it at every game played every week at every level even in the premier league.
Padiham do have the making of a good side, but alot of hard work needs to be done and I hope their coach can get the best from them. talking to one another is the main thing to me.
Please take this as constructive criticism and nothing negative.
Barry

So, the offside rule rears its ugly head again, I said at the start of the season it and the linesmen would be a bone of contention.
The majority of people now just don't understand what the offside rule is and use the 'Old' rule as their guide. Unfortunately some linesmen are also playing to this rule as well.

Fact is you can have several players in a technical offside position but they will not be given offside unless they interfere with play i.e. block the keepers view etc etc etc. Or, they attempt to chase the ball or receive it.
What confuses the issue is that it's subjective as to what 'Being brought into play' is. I forget who it was that said it but it was a premiership manager that if you're on the field you're brought into play which is fair comment.

You'll notice that most 'amateur linesmen' will flag regardless of the circumstances, I had this conversation with one early in the season who offered me his flag. I'd have taken it if I could run because he obviously didn't know the offside law. This was over him flagging two Saints players offside when they weren't being brought into play. Yes they were in 'technically offside' positions but no attempt was made to play the ball to them and neither attempted to receive it. Given it was on the edge of the box it was hardly obstructing the keeper.

Another game resulted in the linesman flagging long after the ball was played and in both cases the players were onside when it was played but in a technical offside position when they received it. Fortunately it was friendly banter with this one but showed his ineptitued by giving offside from a throw in. That just about said it all and he admitted later he was learning the game. What's he doing officiating when he doesn't know the basic laws?

From my observations I have to say that most of the amateur linesmen i.e. club officials, get it wrong more times than they get it right. First off because they don't understand the law and can't interprate it. Secondly most can't and don't keep up with play, how can you flag an offside when the angle is 30 degrees or more, how can you see the players not level? Finally there's the 'bias' decision i.e. will flag just to stop a goalscoring opportunity. Don't all start jumping up and down and screaming at me, you know it happens.

The short answer to this is to carry on as it is and have the linesmen take and give stick which we all know you shouldn't do at this level (should have said can't) or go back to the old rule where if you're in an offside position you're offside, even if you're stood on the cornerflag.

You have to reserve judgement on why he threw his flag down because of someone moaning, it could be he'd made the right decision in not flagging if he wasn't interfering with play.......or maybe not.

Who'd be a linesman at this level? Far better at u10's where the offside means someone's run off the pitch.

Finally I'm a bit suprised they didn't get the vocal support, that's not like a Saints team. Maybe some of the Rooks supporters should come along to 'cheerleader' them on. Joking apart, it does make a difference giving them a shout especially if they've gone behind. Sometimes especially away it may be a little embarrasing to them to shout their team on. Does it matter to Rooks supporters? Ask them and you'll get an emphatic 'Does it not' or words to that effect.
Come on folks get behind your team, they think we're a bunch of weirdo's from Padiham anyway.

God I love these forums, wish more people would post on them.

Well after that reply I don't think I'll use these forums again.

barry b wrote:Well after that reply I don't think I'll use these forums again.

I agree. Bit of a bizarre post that Jon.

Before I get to my thoughts on the game, I was the "angry linesman". I have run the line a few times this season. I don't want to run the line though, as Dan plays up front and I'm constantly covering our left back. Nobody else will do it. Every match I ask if anybody else wants to do it and as usual I pick up the flag. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm doing the ref a favour. The reason I threw the flag down was because one of their lad's grandads came over to where I was in the 2nd half just to complain about every decision - even decisions I gave their way! He insisted that I was cheating and that I was giving every decision our way - ironically he said it again after I had let a close offside decision go their way. The bloke was a prat so I offered him the flag if he could do a better job. He didn't accept my kind approach and continued to barrack my decisions, so I told him to stuff it. I understand the offside rule and was judging offsides from being level with the last defender and not stood next to the corner flag, like the aforementioned prat. I've apologised to Tom and I can take any amount of stick. The point is I shouldn't have to take it. I want to go and watch a game of kids football on a Sunday afternoon and being linesman I can't do this.

As for encouragement, I did my fair share. However, as a level 1 coach myself (and I've run a kids team before with Barrowford Celtic) I know that when some parents are giving vocal support and coaching it can conflict what the Manager wants, so it's best not to do too much otherwise the lads are running around like nutters and they dont know what the Manager expects. When I'm running the line (however badly!) I try to help the defence to push up or drop back, mark up etc..but the lads basically look over at me and they are obviously thinking "who's he?". Whatever way Tom wants to play I'll support him all I can and help coach/encourage as much as he wants me to.

In terms of the game, Tom got it spot on. In the first half of most games we have a fighting spirit and some desire from a team. In the second half of the games that disappears for some unknown reason and they look like a group of individuals who are heading for a defeat. I think we have difficulty clearing the ball in defence and most of the conceded goals this season have come from our own mistakes or failure to get rid. The gap between the defence and midfield is always too big, as our defenders have a tendancy to hang back, and our midfielders have a tendancy to attack and stay forward even when we are defending. On Sunday only the 4th goal was of their own doing!

After the game Dan said he didn't know where Tom wanted him to play. He was supposed to be up front as a lone striker, yet Mark obviously wants to play in that position and very often was in front of Dan. One of the teams main assets is speed; Josh, Dan, Mark, Bradley and Matthew are quick lads and if you look back at the goals we score, these are usually from through balls into space or mazy runs so we need to look at ways of getting the ball forward quicker. Dinks over the top or passes out to Aidan or Bradley on the wings would work - if only we could get it to them! Maybe we need a holding midfielder to play in front of the back two - I think Sam would be an excellent choice for this position - or even Mark if he didn't stray too far forward as he can pick out a pass and has a heck of a right foot when he wants!

Well done lads for a good effort on Sunday. I'm looking forward to next Sunday's game which is one we can most certainly win, and as I live in Clayton it's one I really want you to win.

However, I won't be linesman.

Barry B.......Why? What's upset you about my reply.

Dan's Dad, bizarre in what manner? Am I missing something in my reply?
Barry B refered to the linesman issue i.e. throwing down the flag and the offside rule. I've merely responded to that.

You will gather I have a bone of contention and it's because I can see what's wrong and can't do anything about it. Unless the clubs are willing to pay for three officials it'll never be resolved.
I don't have an issue with the volunteers who offer their services to the clubs and referees and run the line, in fact they are to be commended. I do have an issue with the guys that do it out of whatever motive and don't know the laws of the game and stand by all I said in my original post.

What's pleasing about this is that at least there is a response albeit Barry B throwing his dolly out the pram without clarifying why and Dan's dad calling it bizarre again without clarification.

Just on the point of spectators at this level we shouldn't or rather can't make comments to the match officials during the game. The team who's spectators are involved will be held accountable for them. That I have been guilty of in the past.

Really do hope there's a sensible response to this post, when you post on a forum, any forum, it's open to comment and discussion whether you like it or not.

I've just sat here for a minute or two wondering whether to involve myself in this discussion or not

The way I saw Jons post was not as a sly dig at anyone involved in the game, just a comment at how sometimes the offside rule and officials decisions can overshadow a game, like we have seen happen many times in Saints games. I remember one of my first games here managing the under 14's against Mellor - we were drawing 0-0, and one of our midfielders played a pass forwards to our striker, who was promptly flagged offside by the opposite teams linesman. Now, it was clear to me that he wasn't in an offside position when the ball was played, as he started his run from inside our own half. This happened TWICE in the space of a few minutes, and our team and myself were obviously unhappy about it. Now, whether it was just a couple of honest mistakes or an underhand way of helping his team to win (we did end up losing that game 2-0) I will never know, but I certainly didn't act stupidly and deliberately move myself to within the vicinity of the official and give him abuse for the rest of the game, which is what one supporter/idiot obviously felt compelled to do in the game on sunday. I was there on that touchline when that incident took place and I wasn't impressed by it at all, Darwen were leading 4-1 at that point, so any suggestion that Dan's Dad was trying to influence the game is completely ludacris. He had to make a decision, and if it was as poor as the Darwen supporter made it out to be, surely the referee (who was well placed to see the offside line) would have overuled it? It must have been a close one if the ref saw the flag and thought it was the right decision.

I know just how tough it is being a linesman, and when it comes to close offside decisions there is such a fine line between right and wrong, that if you don't flag, the defending team will be at you for the rest of the game, and if you do flag, the attacking team will be at you - you just can't win.

And a word of thanks to Dan's Dad as well for being thoughtful enough to run the line over the past few games, I'll see who I can find to drop in it for the next one!

Is this the longest thread in the under 12's history?

Jon - I said it was bizarre because you wrote about the offside rule and what it is, and on first read I couldn't tell whether you were backing me as the linesman or were saying I might not know what the rules were - I know what the rule is. Reading back, I agree that your post wasn't negative, so I apologise.

Re: Vocal Support - There were only 3 or 4 parents there for the whole of the game. Hardly a crowd is it? If its vocal support and parents shouting we want then the parents should be encouraged to come to every game.

Tom - if you want me to run the line again, I will do. Not every game though; every parent should have a turn - provided they know the rules! I don't mind taking grief from the opposition - unfortunately in the game called football you have to accept you are going to get some. You can't shout racist or homophobic things, but feel free to have a go at calling the volunteer linesman a cheat by all means...

The main problem for me is that from "left back linesman" its difficult to watch the game as a spectator as you are actively involved in the game. As Dan is up front I can't encourage/help him/offer my vocal support.

I've read the posts on Darwen Rangers Lads' website (similar to this forum) and they dont even mention the linesman incident, but more how noisy and shouty the Manager and parents were and how they are the best team in the league and have to get stuck in and not be so "nice" etc....I wonder if any of those people have taken (and passed) the FA Parents Code of Conduct badge?

Until Sunday!

Absolutely right to comment Tom in anyway you see fit, that's what forums are about, having an opinion and expressing it right or wrong. My post is or wasn't a sly dig at anyone as you've read it, the people that do know me will tell you if I've got anything to say I'll say it directly and not beat around the bush making inuendoes, that involves constructive team critisism as well.
I will never critisise individuals for running the line, like I said in one of my other post's 'Who'd be a linesman at this level?'. What I will critisise is the people that do it out of the goodness of their heart or because they've been pressganged into it and really don't know what they're doing.

My post was not to critisise either Barry B and more importantly Dan's dad over a decision he made, but just to highlight that it is a major problem at this level of football. I took Barry b's post to indicate that the issue with throwing the flag down over an offside was something and nothing, borne out by 'It's football and you get it every week in the Premier league'. I see it as more than that, rightly or wrongly, which is why I focused on just the one point. I've been guilty in the past myself in indicating to the officials that they've got it wrong. Fact is, you can't do it at this level or the club itself could suffer.
That aside, who's listening and watching what goes on? Well the kids of course, heavens knows what they think sometimes and I've seen it first hand where a kid openly defies the referee to the point of the ref bringing on the coach to help deal and defuse the situation. What they see and hear they think it's ok to do and say, and to get away with it.

Dan's dad, it could be one of the longest threads recorded on here, wish more of the others were the same, everyone I'm sure has an opinion to offer.
You're right I did explain about the offside rule and stated in brief what it meant, that wasn't aimed at at you or Barry b in particular but for the benefit of of lots of people who may have heard 'offside' but not know exactly what it was. How can you explain to someone who has a basic knowledge of football, i.e. maybe some mums whos knowledge extends to 'get the ball between the sticks', that a player can be in an offside position yet not be offside? The only way I see it is to try and explain it.
To be honest Dan's dad, I was neither backing nor critisising you in my post. I couldn't possibly have done that because Barry b didn't offer enough information about the situation. Again I just responded to the general situation and reaffirming that this is not an isolated instance or problem. Take a look at one of my posts refering to this specifically, my views haven't changed yet.

There really wasn't need to apologise but it is nice of you to see that I wasn't attacking anyone, just trying to make a point. Also glad to see that you will run the line again, not sure if a game can go ahead at this level without linesmen? No one is going to get it right 100% of the time but if someone flags offside from a throw in then I'm sorry, they just should not be doing it.
I have to agree that calling the officials 'Cheats' is way over the top, heard it many times at Rooks games and just shows a lack of composure from some spectators, league officials wouldn't put up with it, why should the amateurs?
The opposition are hardly likely to highlight the incident given their spectator was involved. They may well be the best team in the league, that can be justified by their league position and as for getting 'stuck in', not even going there.

Thanks for replying especially in the way that you have, I misunderstand sometimes and it's not always easy to put the feelings and emotion of the moment into words so that it looks and sounds right.
What I will say if people don't already know, is that if I'm making a critisism or calling someone out you will not be left in any doubt about it.
We might not know everything folks but we all have opinions, get them on here in the forums.

Well this is a record I just had to have my say so we could keep this going.

I have always said that the other side are never going to agree when a linesman puts up his flag for offside. Whether he is right or wrong in their decision.

I have seen it plenty of times where parents and coaches have a go at the linesman who more often than not didn't really want to do the job in the first place.

In my opinion we have a qualified referee for matches why can't we get qualified linesmen as well there are plenty of young referees coming through and this would give them experience for the games I know they probably would also get some stick about decisions but at least they are an official and it may not get as ugly.

It is so hard to run the line but on the other hand I have seen linesman especially when I have watched the under 14's games blatantly put their flags up when it was nowhere near offside just to stop us from scoring.

Back to the game sounds like the under 12's have some real potential and if it is too quiet at matches i'm going to have to come along and show them how it's done they'd never be quiet again for fear of me showing up again. I think half of Burnley could hear me when I get in full swing x

Thought i'd add my thoughts to what could be the longest thread in the world!! I run the line every week, keep up with play and also i am as honest as the day is long. I wonder how many of the parents out there actually understand the offside rule because they seem to moan about everything. Last Sunday i had a lad miles offside, he headed the ball so up went the flag, his mum said he was never offside and i had stopped him from scoring a hat-trick!

Good luck with your website by the way!

Good points Paula but we all know that having three officials comes down to cost to the clubs. I would imagine, and I stand to be corrected, that the majority run on a shoestring and tripling the match fees just isn't an option.
I agree that running the line in an amateur capacity is probably a thankless task, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. They are to be commended for doing it but I still maintain that if they don't understand the rules then no matter what their motives are, they shouldn't take it on.

I imagine Simon that the vast majority like yourself are honest and fair in their appraisal of decisions they take. Sadly there are some that take advantage, Paula's highlighted some, I've highlighted some and believe it or not I've seen linesmen raise the flag before the ball has gone out of play. This has happened on several occassions, they raised the flag because the ball was on it's way out and I can remember at least two occassions where our player kept it in but the ref gave a throw. One instance just as a footnote was the linesman who gave offside from a throw in.
I would agree with with you that a lot of spectators probably don't know the laws of the game but that's not a barrier to enjoying it. I've never 'Barracked' a linesman but I have asked them the question i.e. 'Why've you flagged them offside when they weren't in play' and 'They were onside when the ball was played' hardly abuse but it did get two totally different reactions.
Now I restrict my comments to the wife and close supporters, they won't send me off and I won't get myself and the club into trouble.

No you can leave that one to me Jon I'm always in trouble but I don't care

Well you do the barracking and fighting and I'll do the cheerleading, 'Come on Rooks lets have another', making sure I'm well away from you and stood behind Sue and Donna.

In all seriousness though, although we do critisise the linesmen with good cause, there are many week in week out, who do a good job without any problem and I certainly wouldn't want to go down the road of linesmen having to justify every decision they make.

I can't remember the refs name but he's the oldest one we have, he's brilliant and I told him so once. When he awards a free kick he often tells them very quickly why he's awarded it i.e. 'You pulled him back lad' or 'You caught his ankle' etc etc etc. Heard him do it many times and he always has complete control of the game.
Not suggesting our volunteers go to that extreme but when getting a bit of stick just a quiet, 'Yes he was offside, he went for the ball' would probably quieten most spectators. Think the main thing with officials should be that they don't take it personal, hard I know especially if you're being called a cheat.